The AECO: What Makes Them Different and What Brings Them Together When It Comes to Their Data, Process and Technology

Joe Giegerich

Everybody, it’s Joe Giegerich, Shaili Modi-Oza and with us today is Salla Eckhardt once again for the ProjectReady Podcast. And so today the topic is. And one of the things that I’ve remarked and noticed over the years of working within the industry is people talk about the AEC like it’s a single thing and there are some marked similarities, certainly similarities and challenges. We think we address across the board, but. And architect and engineer construction and the owner also are very unique and have a wide variety of flavors, if you will, of what that AEC and O represent. So. Today I want to explore a little bit, you know, what are those differences? How varied are they, if you will? Those differences, how do they drive technology and the use of technology and what’s distinct? And of course, what’s common in terms of the various challenges and pain that everybody experiences within that very broad umbrella that we refer to as the AEC slash? So with that. Just trying to figure out where to start with. I guess we start with the a component, right? You know it’s the alphabet and all that good stuff. So you know, I I think the obvious thing is, is that architects, you know, they design the thing that you’re going to build, at least from an exterior perspective. But let me turn this over to Sala so. Solid from your perspective. The architects role.

Salla Eckhardt

Well, thank you Joe, for inviting me for this discussion again. And so I’ve been thinking a lot about how the modern day architects are involved in the the overall technical and and digital building life cycle. And back in the day, the architects, they were producing drawings. And and that’s where people oftentimes consider the the the architects draw buildings, they produce drawings, and and that’s it. But the drawings are just a simple, simplified output about the the financial, social and tech. Goal outcomes of a building, and that’s where I see that architects are contributing to a division of real estate investor developer that that they create, create the form and the function for what the investor wants to invest in. And then if you have a really good. Architect that building is going to stand a time and it will increase in its value and that’s what we see in the price of real estate too, so. From my perspective, architects are not drawing buildings. That’s for for someone else. But they create the physical form for the vision of what the technical, social and financial performance of building 1 is.

Joe Giegerich

So it’s a lot more than this the how the structure should look is your point, right? It’s what is that structure and the and just asking and paraphrasing. So it’s what is that structure going to be used for, who’s going to be using it, what how does it sit within the ecosystem of the city or the environment or the. You know. Real ecosystem of the planet is that sort of your contention?

Salla Eckhardt

Yes, because well, now that we are thinking about smart cities and and thinking about how build buildings are built and developed and how regions are being developed etcetera, they are long term strategies for how people can, how the population grow regionally and where people can work, where they can live, where they can have their hobbies. And everything that they are involved in their lives. So like you said architects, they have a much. Holder purpose in creating the future of our built environment than just creating new drawings for an individual project.

Joe Giegerich

Right. That’s like 30 years ago, right when you had that, you know, they big plot printers and well, engineers the same I guess. But yes, as you have the Internet Internet of Things and a whole bunch of other stuff out there. And again, smart cities, all of that the role of the architect is much more expansive than it had been previously. But it begs. A question though, so. Where does the engineer then fit within that ecosystem?

Salla Eckhardt

Well, from my perspective, if the Arctic is giving the the form and function for something that the developer investor wants to invest in, then the engineers they make sure that the systems technical performance supports the overall social, financial and technical technical performance of the building and. What goes beyond that individual building? So, it’s a marriage between architects and engineers to collaborate on creating something that is harmonized and balanced and optic. Nice. And overall predictable. So, when thinking about digital twins’ metaphors and how we can predict where the spending in operations or in capital expense is spent, then it needs to be a close collaboration in a dialogue that what are we actually aiming for what? Is the outcome that we are trying to achieve rather than just focusing on the the short outputs?

Joe Giegerich

Right. And then the the How does it actually work, right the, the, the physics of it is where I understand the engineer comes in more there was a client I had years ago. Name names, but this is really for my other company. It’s really one of the projects we had that led us to Project Ready was the the the head of IT was. Formerly a CAD manager, he was an engineer and he goes architects hand me a piece of balsa wood and I’m supposed to make it stand up. Which still sticks with me. I found it a very funny comment at that point, because everybody’s within the industry, but everybody you know has a particular axe to grind. I’m I’m sure that, you know, the construction end is going. Gee, thanks, engineer do. Do you know how much? How, how am I going to get this material to the site? Is that fair in terms of? As it cascades across that system. That, with the architect’s perspective, the architect’s role drives challenges for the engineer that drives challenges for the construction entity.

Salla Eckhardt

Yes. And those challenges, there are opportunities to innovate those opportunities for improving and it requires that the project teams to before and launch earlier so that we are not pushing issues to become problems for the next stakeholder in the project. But it should be.

Speaker

Required.

Salla Eckhardt

A more collab. Creative teamwork, effort and pressing down the silos that we’ve been talking about previously in the podcast that. There needs to be.

Speaker

OK.

Salla Eckhardt

More collaboration and cooperation, rather than just handing things off and hoping that someone can continue from what we’ve created, but really having more empathy and compassion. And here what what we are producing. Who are we producing for and what is the outcome that we’re actually trying to achieve and and then breaking down into your milestones and and the the overall steps in the process in making sure that the the quality of the outputs is meeting the quality of the outcomes

Joe Giegerich

Yeah, it’s not dissimilar as you had pointed out to previous podcasts, we’ve done with you and others. I guess that. You know you have to have a proactive plan as to how the data is going to flow and the data is flowing because of the interaction between the different spokes of the industry.

Salla Eckhardt

Exactly, exactly. And that’s why we need it. Data environments, common data environments and and digital platforms, and and really a digital economy strategy and and data master plan strategy for the industry that how do we manage buildings in a digital form and create a digital twin before we have the attempt to create the physical twin. That it’s very expensive to try to fix something that you’ve already produced, whereas if you have it in a digital format, you can create multiple versions of things and really study that. What are the effects of the design decisions that we are making or engineering decisions that we are making and taking the approach of. Spending a little bit more time, maybe 20% of the time thinking and evaluating and treating certainly and then spending 80% of the time in executing something that has already BeenVerified.

Joe Giegerich

And the other thing I’ve noticed, I just want to get your view on this too is I’ve seen a lot more horizontal integration in the industry over the ensuing years. Is that a fair observation?

Salla Eckhardt

What do you mean by.

Joe Giegerich

Oh, there that you back in the day. You know, you would have somebody who, just as architectures or just architects, just engineers, but more and more firm seem to be. Having sort of all of the above down to even construction, or at least construction management.

Salla Eckhardt

Well, I’m. I’m hopeful that that is the route and that is the trend that we’re taking as an industry that people have transferable skills. So overall, as people’s knowledge and experience competence increase over time with their careers, they can do more and it’s more resourceful. Efficient. They allow people to grow with their careers and grow with something that they’ve already learned how to do. So in in in that way you have more resources on per say for less spend and and you can get more things done cause when when thinking about my career track that I’ve spoken a lot about how teams were much smaller in Finland and in Europe compared to how big the teams are here in the United States. People have to wear multiple hats in the same projects to create something, so it’s a different approach and I I really support your idea of being more horizontal career path for people that it doesn’t always have to be a a vertical career path that inspires people. We we can expand and. A lot of skills. All transferable and and if people are architects, they can easily learn engineering and vice versa. So, it’s a. It’s it’s a smart way of pushing the digital transformation of the industry forward as well as making sure that people find meaningful careers in the C industry rather than being stuck and then choosing a completely new. Industry.

Joe Giegerich

Sure. And and you know. Being a very mercantile city in New York and which I’m raised, it’s This is why you have all these roll ups, right? You know, I’ve just witnessed fewer and fewer 100 seat 200 seat firms exist. It’s more and more. Thousand 5010 thousand. And as a lot to do with the the holding company or the whatever the the central office that goes well. Wait a minute. If there’s a bid on a project that has all these other elements, if we are just. Pick up and synthesize different companies into different divisions under one roof. They can go after bigger awards. I think that’s a very big part of it.

Salla Eckhardt

Yes, yes. And that way it can produce things much faster and get into the implementation of the project much faster. And that always means that you’re ahead of the inflation curve. So overall it’s a win win, but you’re. Kirsten.

Joe Giegerich

Although switching ahead to the owner, you have less accountability potentially, don’t you? I mean, if if you have the A, the E. The construction management is all under one entity. Who’s doing the checks and balances for the owner? I don’t know if that’s a valid point of it.

Salla Eckhardt

Just struck me now. I think it’s a very good point that you’re making that. Maybe there is a gap that waits to be filled and there is a completely new career path being born from the digital transformation of the industry. The. That someone that is creating something, can that be the one that is validating that they they do something right? So there needs to be a like a safe way of verifying checking but it doesn’t have to be a very heavy process and that’s why digital tools like ProjectReady enable people to do the pre-check. Themselves and not have someone police them or be the one that then fixes all the the problems that have been left behind because people take the easy route of not caring enough.

Joe Giegerich

I I I have the award, I don’t really care I. Just wanna get paid basically. But that’s also the role of the construction manager. We we’ve seen program management has become a very hot title of late, if you will. And I’ve been seeing construction management. So, let’s go back to like because I’ve seen architectural firms that do construction management, I’ve seen engineering firms that do construction management. Obviously, I see GC’s that do construction management. Where does construction management fit in across that pantheon of? Letters, if you will.

Salla Eckhardt

I think it would be healthy. It would if it was part of all the different disciplines in, in, in the overall chain of command is then when thinking about like the data being defined in the information and that becoming knowledge and then it is becoming organizational wisdom. If people are not exposed to what what they produce as an outcome, they will never learn, so people need to be exposed to actually seeing what leads to what, what is the cause and effect of things so that they can continue learning and avoiding making the same mistake as what they might have done in the past. And the more people get exposed to things. The more their own brain is producing solutions that they didn’t even think about before coming across. Thing. So overall I’m I’m very pro that horizontal training and expansion of accountability and responsibility of professionals that are. Mainly focused on similar types of projects and becoming specialized in healthcare projects or being specialized in in school and education projects or commercial projects, etc. And there’s always room room to learn and grow and learn from from the past projects and. And the only way that people learn is by being exposed to the overall, you know, command.

Joe Giegerich

But what is the so you know switching down to the seaport, right, so construction. Is what it is, right? Putting up and rolling out that asset physically, right?

Salla Eckhardt

Hmm.

Joe Giegerich

So, but going back to the construction Manager II and the owner Rep well, there’s a question for you. What’s the difference between the role of the construction manager and the owner, Rep, where do they overlap? Where are they distinct?

Salla Eckhardt

Well, an ownership is it’s it’s specifically representing the owner and and almost like being the lawyer on behalf of the the owner and keeping the best interest of the owner and some of the owners, they might be involved in a project once in a lifetime, whereas the owners Rep they serve multiple. Plans at the same time, so they are specialized in managing the best interest of of the owner and construction management that is focused on the product productivity and profitability of the projects and making sure that things are delivered on time, on budget. Safely and with high quality, so the roles they they can blend but they are also very specific in in terms of the accountability and responsibility of of the person holding the ball.

Joe Giegerich

OK, so go back to talk a little bit about certainly on the tech side. You know architects and engineers, they both tend to be very heavily Autodesk or maybe Bentley, correct, but what so? The difference between engineers, tech snack and the architects, how distinct is it?

Salla Eckhardt

Again, it’s it’s starting to blend more because a lot of architects, they are being The Pioneers of digital transformation, so they become so-called citizen developers, they’ve learned how to program things and create tools that haven’t preexisted. And then fortunately the big tech companies bought the best solutions and integrated them into their ecosystem. Well. So, people have skills, and they are not afraid to use them. Fortunately, we see it as a benefit that we can get better solutions and better innovations at a much faster pace when there is a close collaboration between the software and technology companies and the the end. Users, so I’m I’m excited about the trend and and I’m also very excited about the open BIM and open data and more open approach into creating those new solutions. So that people are not giving they’re their lists of what what they want for the big tech companies that then. Have to go and and produce something that people then say that this is not what I wanted. It just leads into very long development processes that don’t necessarily please. Anyone. But enabling. The collaboration on digital platforms and opening up systems so people can think for things and and create solutions for the needs that they have. It is now creating way better solutions for the industry overall and enabling innovation and solution development to happen. Anywhere. So, it’s not tied to like a geographic region anymore or? Or a specific? Group somewhere or a specific team somewhere. Innovation and development can happen anywhere. Now people have the skills to do things.

Joe Giegerich

Well, obviously those open standards and I guess I bring in Shelley at this point, have been critical for what we do because basically you have CD’s, but you need an IDE or an integrated data environment. And so surely what what are some of the similarities in systems and needs that you’ve seen from? A platform and functionality perspective and where have you seen differences?

Shaili Modi-Oza

Yeah, I think like how we’ve been talking about collaboration, I think that is the key. But along with that, engineers, architects, all while working on the same project, I still feel that they have specific specialties. So, like. All the architects create these designs and electrical engineers need to specifically work on the electrical side of it. The civil engineers do their things, but they all have their own different softwares that they do. Work on but at a project level, it all somehow needs to come together, so that’s where we’ve seen a lot of disconnect where even within the same team, all of these different team members are working on different parts of the same project and they have difficulty bringing that together into there’s no. Common system as such, where it needs to basically come together, but we’ve seen more and more that people want to. Bring things in like 1 location so that you have that at a project level that OK this is when this team completed this work and then the next team took over. There needs to be that kind of information, logging, tracking and just making sure it all kind of stays on track as. Different companies or even different teams within the same companies work together.

Joe Giegerich

Yeah, that you have the series of traceable events that hand off between the different groups and you know. So yeah, even going to straight platform, so architects and engineers will probably both widely use Autodesk and or Bentley architects, probably more interested in the VR component and augmented reality engineers have to be fixated on GIS and you know, you go to the construction end of the world and they may be using. No core or ACC, and they’re going to have their own software for the execution of what they’re building. But the commonality, I I think between them and the owner. Is what you just mentioned there, Shirley, which is the need to be able to have all those stakeholders and Information Act in the single context of a project that, that, that is the pain is the management of and hand off of information in a collaborative fashion that I think is what the universal challenges. For all. For, you know, letters of the AECO.

Shaili Modi-Oza

Definitely. And we’ve seen so many times that there’s a lot of manual rewiring needed. People are downloading things from 1 system and re uploading it somewhere manually and there’s. So much room for error in these cases, because different team members, different systems and just doing all of that manually creates a lot of confusion.

Joe Giegerich

Yeah. And it’s a waste of money. I mean, one of one of our clients we were talking to persons and engineer and they’re spending two days there a week just downloading and uploading a login. It’s not a very good use of a well-paid skill set. Alright, so let’s switch over to the owner. You know, from our perspective OR you know the owner, I always thought their biggest challenge was getting what they paid for, which is not just the building, right? It’s all that information that goes into it. And so, the owners role, which is extended through the owner Rep. Do you see owners becoming more involved in their projects versus like, you know, commissioning a building and then that’s it?

Salla Eckhardt

Very good question. It really depends on the owner. There are now potentially a lot of international investors that are buying real estate stock and they they trade it as they trade regular stock, they buy buildings in the morning, they sell them in the afternoon. And it’s more of a financial instrument for them and yeah. And in that case, it makes sense to hire someone to do the owners Rep services on your behalf.

Joe Giegerich

Like a reef.

Salla Eckhardt

So you can focus on managing your your financial assets, but someone else will manage the the physical artifact for you, but then there needs to be very open dialogue about what the expectations about the investment are for the owner. How long do they plan to hold on? To the physical artifact and how do they want to continue to improve it? It really depends on the owner whether they just want to sit on their portfolio or do they want to find ideal tenants for it and do they want to make changes in the the building and and kind of like it depends on a lot of things. Yeah. But overall, like not all owners reps.

Joe Giegerich

It depends on the type of owner.

Salla Eckhardt

Are the same either, so it’s. It it’s kind of a developing thing right now and in the AC industry that it’s a a new type of role it it’s existed for decades now, but it’s still a new type of role when thinking about the digital building portfolio that you can have digital twins. Of your entire portfolio, you can see how the different buildings are technically performing or financially performing, socially performing and comparing them region to region and do all kinds of data analytics. Then the question is that. Are the services that are being provided for the owners keeping up with the digital transformation and what technology can actually do for creating new types of services and creating value-based services rather than just doing what has been done before? So there is a like an opportunity for innovation and creating new types of roles, again for managing the digital assets and the digital portfolio as well as the the physical artist.

Joe Giegerich

Yeah, I would argue that’s that’s one of the things about program management. I mean, it’s not like program management is new. It’s just a much hotter topic because I think you know, the idea that you’re looking at a project in terms of a single asset that’s part of a smart city well.

Salla Eckhardt

And.

Joe Giegerich

That’s a program. Right. And so even though we’ve seen a marked shift and and you know from our perspective the data needs.

Speaker

Yes.

Joe Giegerich

Right. You know, if you have eight large physical assets of sports stadium, a Conference Center and you know some apartment buildings, they’re still part of that single. Portfolio, if you will, that they’re components of that city and and the other thing that it really you know sort of just called out to me now too is that even within the oh, there’s no such thing as a single owner type, right? You could be a manufacturer, you could be at a college or a hospital, in which case this is a long term asset. In the way that I think you need to approach its ownership and ownership of that data and management of the delivery and maintenance is markedly different than the example you gave for instance of like a Reed who’s like, we’ll put up the money, you build the asset, we’re going to flip it. You know, in three weeks it’s just going to be part of our portfolio.

Salla Eckhardt

Yeah. Yeah. So is that what what you’re describing is that it’s like that’s what I hope that our audience really starts to think about that the digital transformation is not about continuing the same processes and the same services as before, creating something new that is more value adding and enabling people to expand. So it’s a. Digital transformation is not taking away things and it’s not taking away jobs or it’s not taking away assets or anything. It it’s enabling people to do more with less and seeking out new revenue streams and creating new services and new jobs and all kinds of things that benefit everyone. Is that using the building alignment?

Joe Giegerich

Yeah, the digital innovation component actually creates jobs, right? There’s no, there’s, there’s nothing but housing shortages worldwide.

Salla Eckhardt

MHM.

Joe Giegerich

You know. I forget what periodical is reading yesterday, but you know, as they cite going, there were two billion people on Earth at the end of the Second World War. There are 8 billion now. It is, you know, one century. It’s very difficult to catch up 80 years. To the quadrupling of of of of the population, and then you know the new needs around chip manufacture, which is a big deal in the United States and actually around the world now. NVIDIA has, well, a number of things have made everybody focus on chip manufacturing, so there’s no shortage of assets that need to be created and there is no.

Salla Eckhardt

Hmm.

Joe Giegerich

Shortage of different scenarios in which you know things need to be built and why they need to be built. So even down to the owner there’s no such thing as the owner, right? So you know what? When I’ll talk to folks and I go 01 of my biggest clients is a manufacturer. They go well. We thought you worked with the AEC. Yeah, they design things that fabricators build for them that they have to deliver and bring back to their.

Salla Eckhardt

MMM. You know.

Joe Giegerich

Customers and so are you know, how do you regard them within that AECO? They’re incredibly heavy Autodesk users. So what? Uh, so I guess the other thing then to pivot on is.

Speaker

OK.

Joe Giegerich

What? What are the? Just give me a beat here. This is the miracle of editing. Just trying to figure out to go from here. If anywhere. Any suggestions folks?

Salla Eckhardt

I’m really curious about your perspective on how far. Just. The the built environment industry is going to destroy transform now that AI tools are being embedded into our everyday tools, so they’re not necessarily specialty tools that the end users are going to be using, but it’s going to be embedded in very trivial tools that are then. Integrated with this specialty tools that that Shirley mentioned that engineers use completely different tools than what architects and designers use. But then there are tools that everyone is using and are becoming the household names, but then. And if people can be aided and their work can be augmented so that people that might be transferring from other industries into the AC industry, or we we can see a boom of younger generations choosing to be employed in the Asia industry, then they get excited about having. More time in their hands to interact with other people and build the collaboration rather than work in a silo and and just be in a deep focus mode every day with their own tools and and producing their own own outcomes. They they want their work to be augmented so they can actually embrace. Their project teams and and create something together, so there’s like a generational shift that I’m already seeing in terms of how how the Gen. Z years work versus the 10X work and and somewhere in between the millennials technology.

Joe Giegerich

Don’t forget the boomers. They still own most of us.

Salla Eckhardt

Yes, yes, and and and technology is there to help everyone, they they are new tools and they are the sharper tool. Rules, but we can’t really lift our own responsibility and accountability on AI and say that ohh AI can do my work. No, we need to embrace AI as a tool that enables us to do a better job with what we are accountable for.

Joe Giegerich

So on that topic right of AI and I’m very glad to mention that, right. So we’ve done garbage in garbage out, right? We just did a podcast with my buddy Lou from Microsoft on copilot and. I I don’t think the industry is ready. I really don’t. And I how can I put? This. So when we brought this to market, everybody was still on premise and I had to argue about file systems, right. Even though you had been 360 at the time, sharepoint’s been around about 25 years, right, so. You know it. It was a someday we’ll get there and the industry is a notorious laggard in in adoption. Of if you will cloud tech and traditional tech just because they’re focused rightfully is on like GIS and drones, right? But there was they they don’t, they they they historically have not focused really on back office efficiency, digitization well the pandemic pushed them all to the cloud which is great and now they have a plethora of systems that. Don’t necessarily talk to each other and to your point, they go well. AI can fix it. No, they they they’re. They’re the data challenges as you keep throwing more and more stuff up into the cloud and adding in more and more data. I see it in some larger institutions. I see it warming up, but I think that’s one of the big challenges the industry has going forward. If you point AI at. Really unordered strated, unreliable data. It’s worse than having AI at all, and to your point, younger generations and anybody you know. She’s not even that young, right. You have an expectation. That you’ll be able to work smarter, faster and have grunt work removed from you. And so we’re still watching the grunt work component dissipate, but I don’t think the industry is ready for AI as well. I don’t think the world is ready for AI to the extent that people think it is. I mean, it’s very good for the stock market, at least at four companies. UM. But you know, not having your digital house in order, not understanding that data is more than you know, the telemetry of an angle within a structure, it’s all this other information that is just splattered all over the place. That’s my perspective on AI. AI has great potential. It is not there yet. And I don’t think the industry is really looking at what the hard work they should be doing now is which is getting ready to have data sets that are intelligible and that can retrieve intelligent results. So let me let me ask Shirley, I mean, what do you observe?

Speaker

Hmm.

Shaili Modi-Oza

Yeah, I think definitely as you mentioned, Joe, that it’s the industry is slowly moving in that direction here. We’ve seen a shift happening where, OK and maybe it’s just because of COVID that people started moving to the cloud, but that’s where it is. Yet that everybody who are using these on. Softwares and files are slowly moving to the cloud, but that isn’t really going to solve the problem I think later on as Salah was mentioning, we start working with digital twins and we have all of this information in. Proper data warehouse kind of A formatted way. I think in the long term, along with machine learning and AI, it’s definitely going to be very beneficial because as there are longer projects that happen, which are all in the cloud, unregulated, and we have those data points in place. I think after a few years it’ll start getting better, but we are in the very early stages. I feel right now, but it’s definitely heading in that direction, which is a good thing.

Joe Giegerich

It’s definitely heading there. I I just think people think it’s it. It’s going to be easier than I think it will be. And to your point like let’s say you’re starting to build an airport now. Well, if you have. Or. You know, if you have your proverbial together right, and have a plan for what you want to do with data long-term, blah blah blah, those those kind of projects will will greatly benefit from a, but if you’re using and cobbling together and mix of on and off Prem, you have everything in the cloud, but there’s no. Continuity between one platform versus another versus the 4th and the 5th that you’re using. I I don’t see AI helping you until you fix the relationship of. Data. So that you can get meaningful results and you know AI is being sold. It’s like I’ve I’ve seen so many bubbles in my life and you know, you think about the Internet bubble that was going to change everything until it didn’t, right. It’s it’s a slow, steady journey. But that’s one of the major challenges I see for the industry. It is really comprehending that AI is not a silver bullet. That’s going to require a lot of work, right? Such as my content. I’m not trying to dump on the industry, but the but what feeds that challenge, quite frankly, is just the sheer volume of data that the industry necessarily creates.

Shaili Modi-Oza

MHM.

Salla Eckhardt

And yes, and and the old data exists, it’s not AI ready, so it it, it doesn’t make sense necessarily to. Start fixing what has already been produced, but there needs to be a strategy for how the AI ready data is going to be created going forward, so that way the overall data master plan, strategy and AI strategy, data security, cyber security strategy, everything that is related to data management. And data sharing, access to data etcetera has some kind of rules and guidelines for it so that it’s not just what was out there in a digital format. And then what? I’m hoping that our listeners understand that if they’re not taking steps to learn or participate in what is happening, then we can’t talk about digital transformation anymore. It’s going to be digital disruption. And that means that they no longer participating in what direction things are moving. It is going to be passengers on the drifting. Chip.

Joe Giegerich

Exactly.

Salla Eckhardt

And and that’s going to be a problem going forward that that data is not necessarily comparable if you have two similar projects like let’s say that someone is mass producing data centers even though if the data centers are produced from the same drawings etcetera, they might be differences. And and that way all the data needs to be somehow captured and verified and managed, because you can’t really rely on something that is similar. It you can’t rely on the simulations or or analytics based on something that is similar.

Joe Giegerich

Right. Something that’s close, but not really.

Salla Eckhardt

Yeah, exactly. So it it needs to be something that is the digital truth about your portfolio or your project or whatever you’re creating. And hence everyone that is producing anything in the build environment in a digital format, they need to be certain about creating the digital truth because it’s a little piece at a time. That we are producing new data and information for others, so we need to take responsibility for what? Creating.

Joe Giegerich

And So what will be common to the AEC O is the use and application of AI what you want from AI will be largely determined by which end of that pool you’re swimming in.

Salla Eckhardt

Hmm.

Joe Giegerich

So there’s gonna be that commonality. There are gonna be differences in what you want and the other commonality is. All these different. Disciplines and branches and extension. Of course the A, the E, the C and the O. Both in house and across the industry have to have a plan or or at least some path to having data that makes sense. Otherwise it’s it’s more dangerous than anything.

Salla Eckhardt

Mm-hmm.

Joe Giegerich

Again, not trying to be negative. I think it’s a huge opportunity. I think it will drive incredible innovation. But again, that’s what I think the challenge for the industry is waking up to that fact that there’s a lot of work to do in terms of getting their data in order both in House and across their partners.

Salla Eckhardt

Yes, yes. So it’s in short, like people need to stop copy pasting data and information for from past projects to be quick and easy. They actually need to put their brain into like why they are producing something. Why are they copy pasting something? What is it that they’re handing over to? Others is then they actively chose either pushing solutions or problems further down and and it it just comes back to bite later.

Joe Giegerich

On yeah and copy and pasting is how the industry wins deals, right? So you know, one of the things I’ve noticed, so when you go into the other supporting disciplines within an arc. Environment is marketing. Marketing generally is kind of the sales outfit within these environments and they literally will take projects of similar type, they’ll copy and paste, they’ll update. We have these people. Here’s their profile. Here are their certs. And so even that don’t copy and paste get it into a database so that you can build it intelligently and in a way where the data becomes fungible. So even that aspect of things. So why are they copying and pasting during the project? Because they probably copied and pasted it to win the project. And it just kind of persists all the way through at that point.

Speaker

Yes.

Salla Eckhardt

Yes, yes. So there’s the original problem doesn’t get fixed because they they always pick and choose what they pick and choose in the past. Same thing goes with the specs that owners manage and and put a lot of money into. Uh creating and they hand them over to the the AEC partners and then they complain that the. Building is not functioning the way that they intended it to function, and the engineers and the designers point at the specs and say that this is what you’ve been giving us for the past decade. This is what we design and engineering your project will. Like it it just. It it continues, circulate the same problem because then nobody goes into the the origin to fix it and and put their brain into it.

Joe Giegerich

Well, and for one, if it’s ten years old, there’s no way really to go back in time because there’s. Just couldn’t do it right, so that history goes away. And I think that also. Calls out that the owners themselves and again wide swath of owner of type, need to have a much more active role in the management of their data, their access to it, it’s relationships, it’s the QC against. All of that, as opposed to, well, we paid for it, billed in. Oh, no, right, because the the consultants will go. No, we’re going to bill you. The owner’s going. I don’t want to pay you. But ultimately, if the owner really wants to take control of the project, they have to be in control of that data. Throughout.

Speaker

Yes.

Joe Giegerich

All right, so what’s common across it really is efficiency and data and large in large measure as the industry moves forward. And I think the other point that we’ve made here today is that these roles are evolving and and increasingly overlapping in a good way. So that would be my closing comments, Shelley Sala.

Salla Eckhardt

Perfect closing comments, but it’s it’s all about collaboration going forward and and making sure that everyone is rolling towards the same goal that we as an industry we need to identify as as colleagues and as partners creating incredible projects going forward. And and not continuing to point fingers at who’s who’s the biggest problem. On the project we all are and now we’ve digitalized our problems very effectively. So now it’s it’s time to like restrategize and embrace what’s coming. The technology. I believe that it’s pretty much ready for what we need at this point in time that the processes they need to change. And the mindsets that need to.

Joe Giegerich

Change. Yeah, you’re ready to upgrade the kitchen, but you haven’t gotten rid of the old appliances. Yeah, yeah. You have to gut the place first so that you can rebuild it.

Shaili Modi-Oza

Yep, agreed.

Joe Giegerich

And one other observation I make is so you know the point of this podcast was to talk about, well, the A, the E, the C, The O. They’re all kind of different. Why do we lump them all together? I guess the reason why it it strikes me, they are all lumped together is because it goes back to that colleague ship. The end of the day. It’s an asset. That does something for people either makes things or people live there, or treats water. So that’s the commonality, right? Is it all leads up to, you know, a physical asset that can spend thousands of years, like, you know, the aqueducts of Rome?

Speaker

Yes.

Joe Giegerich

That that’s what is common is that there’s something being built that human beings rely on and need, and how that all comes together is the AEC and O. I ended my pontification, if you’re all good, I I I will close it out today. As always, we thank you folks for coming in and listening today. Any questions, comments, please do e-mail [email protected] you can post stuff on our website and look forward to the next time. Thank you. Everybody.

Salla Eckhardt

Thank you.